[KnucklesSonic8]

This will probably be better suited for Auriman than me since hes getting it the day of I believe and Im getting a Wii game instead.

Anyway, just thought I'd create the topic for argument's sake.

Will say more in the near future (as will AMan I'm sure). :)

[Auriman1]

Alright, here's the lowdown on Sonic Rivals 2.

Eight Playable Characters:
-Sonic (Special: speed boost)
-Shadow (Special: slows down opponent)
-Knuckles (Special: fiery ring surrounds him)
-Silver (Special: screws up opponent's button arrangement)
-Tails (Special: flying)
-Espio (Special: invisibility)
-Rouge (Special: flying projectiles)
-Metal Sonic (uses opponent's special)

6 Zones (Act 1: Race; Act 2: Battle; Act 3: Race; Act 4: Boss)
-Blue Coast Zone
-Sunset Forest Zone
-Neon Palace Zone
-Frontier Canyon Zone
-Mystic Haunt Zone
-Chaotic Inferno Zone

6 Battle Modes
-Knock-Out
-Tag
-Ring Battle
-King of the Hill
-Capture the Chao
-Laps Race

4 Single Player Modes (Story, Single Event, Cup Circuit, and Free Play)

150 unlockable cards (150 specific tasks, instead of generalized challenges)

Wireless Multiplayer (and "game sharing" options)

Some of the largest mechanical differences between Rivals 2 compared to the first:

-Specials are separate from power-ups. They're charged by collecting rings and killing enemies, instead. Also,  the specials' lives can be extended by rapidly pressing the square button (except Rouge's;  the projectiles launch by pressing square)

-You can't see a power-up before grabbing it. This makes key items like the magnet ring much harder to obtain.

-Better movement mechanics (Trust me. One specific example: you no longer randomly fall off sideways loops when switching between rolling and running in these areas).

-Power-ups are significantly less offensive/slower in this version. No more getting randomly hit by a power-up at the most inconvenient of times when going fast, although they're still good to help stop the other person from catching up. There's also several new power-ups.

-The addition of a series of new obstacles

On the competition side of things:

-All standard races track scores, rings, and times.

-In free play, there's no power-ups, no opponent, and no score; there's just ring collecting, chao collecting (once chao are collected, they're gone), and racing through the level. Note: since there's still enemies and rings in the levels, specials can still be used.

-Boss scores and rings are potentially infinite, like before, so that leaves just times competition-wise.

-Story Mode uses a mixture of race, free play, battle, and mission levels (aka partial race). In other words, usable stages fall under single event and free play.

-There's an unlockable circuit cup for each character. These are nothing more than several of the acts put together (a.k.a. Single Event matches)

-All the battle modes are broke into three different settings. Tag, Knock-Out, and King of the Hill have very little competition potential. Ring Battle (rings), Capture the Chao (time), and Laps Race (rings, score, time; it's just a portion of a level from the zone) would be trackable, although their relevance is questionable.

Character categories:

I'd say to make them "Sonic", "Tails", and "Other". Sonic still always has the upper hand in pure forward speed (more noticeable than before due to the ring-based special charging system, allowing for more use), Tails can skip major obstacles and jump to new paths with his flying ability, and all other characters only effect the rival's movement in some way or another. This only applies to races and free-play, bosses are unaffected by character differences. 

As for playing as Metal Sonic, he would either be treated as the character he's copying, or to avoid confusion, just say not to play as Metal Sonic for competition.

Specific Ruling Changes:

It's now all but impossible to discern power-up attacks from physical attacks, so the attack cap for score runs will probably need to apply to the combined number. I'd say eight is reasonable, since they have a challenge card for that many attacks.

Current divisions I'd recommend:

Times/Scores/Rings:
(These should be further broken down into "Race" and "Free Play" subcategories, but I'm leaving it like this to avoid clutter. Scores wouldn't apply for the "Free Play" subcategory.)

BC Zone   Act 1  Sonic
BC Zone   Act 1  Tails
BC Zone   Act 1  Other
BC Zone   Act 3  Sonic
BC Zone   Act 3  Tails
BC Zone   Act 3  Other

SF Zone   Act 1  Sonic
SF Zone   Act 1  Tails
SF Zone   Act 1  Other
SF Zone   Act 3  Sonic
SF Zone   Act 3  Tails
SF Zone   Act 3  Other

NP Zone   Act 1  Sonic
NP Zone   Act 1  Tails
NP Zone   Act 1  Other
NP Zone   Act 3  Sonic
NP Zone   Act 3  Tails
NP Zone   Act 3  Other

FC Zone   Act 1  Sonic
FC Zone   Act 1  Tails
FC Zone   Act 1  Other
FC Zone   Act 3  Sonic
FC Zone   Act 3  Tails
FC Zone   Act 3  Other

MH Zone   Act 1  Sonic
MH Zone   Act 1  Tails
MH Zone   Act 1  Other
MH Zone   Act 3  Sonic
MH Zone   Act 3  Tails
MH Zone   Act 3  Other

CI  Zone   Act 1  Sonic
CI  Zone   Act 1  Tails
CI  Zone   Act 1  Other
CI  Zone   Act 3  Sonic
CI  Zone   Act 3  Tails
CI  Zone   Act 3  Other

Bosses:

BC Zone
SF Zone
NP Zone
FC Zone
MH Zone
CI  Zone

[bertin]

yeahh....i got this game and it owns!!

[Auriman1]

I just realized today that the Neon Palace Zone's bingo blocks, which give you rings when you get a bingo, refresh themselves after being used, meaning ring and score columns for Neon Palace Zone are null and void.

Edit:
On a related note, since specials are still present in free play, allowing for about the same speeds and paths as regular races (without the possibility of rival interference), I'm not sure if the differences between regular races and free play are significant enough for separate time categories. Any input on this matter?

[KnucklesSonic8]

AMan, it would make more sense to just go by character divs (re: all). Isnt it like the 1st where records are div'd up by character?

[Auriman1]

To answer your question to the best of my ability, ks8:

The in-game record tables of the first Sonic Rivals only recorded the best time, score, and ring count of any level, disregarding characters. This, in combination of no significant character differences (with exception to Sonic's special power-up) is why an "All" division was used in the first Sonic Rivals for TSC, I believe.

In Sonic Rivals 2, the in-game record tables only record the best time and score for any level, disregarding ring counts. Also, the special power-up difference is more drastic, as it's fueled by rings and defeated enemies. This is why it seems individual character categories are in order.

However, only the specials for Sonic and Tails make any significant changes, and all the other characters are essentially the same performance-wise. It doesn't seem necessary to further divide them into separate characters from Sonic, Tails, and Other, although I'm not the one that can make this final decision.

I've attached my proposed Sonic Rivals 2 charts to this post. Since there are no differences between Single Event Race and Free Play (besides tracking score and the presence of a rival in Race), it doesn't seem necessary to break them into separate categories. It also takes away any confusion that would have been created regarding usable story mode levels.

The rules I suggest:
Story, Single Event, and Free Play are to be used for competition.
Only 8 attacks are allowed in a score run.
Do not play as Metal Sonic for competition.

[KnucklesSonic8]

Excellent breakdown in the charts, A-Man.

Couple things:
1. 8 seems a little high to me. It should stay as what the cap was for the original.
2. How come no Act 2's? Are they just the same with a race or something?

edit:
To restrict Metal Sonic seems a little far. You said that no special attacks exist in Free Play, so restrict Metal's usage to only Free Play. But if you combined the two categories for Single Race and Free Play into one, what's the restriction on Metal still there for?

[Auriman1]

I already covered all of this above, but to reiterate...

1. You can no longer tell power-up attacks from physical attacks (previously known as jostles). The cap for the first Sonic Rivals had been for just jostles, as they were unlimited, while power-ups were not. That's why the number is higher, as it applies to cap both of them as one.

2. Act 2's are Battle Matches. They're not races, have strange rules mainly made for multi-player matches, and are mediocre for trackable competition, at best.

3. Character specials are present in free play, just not regular power-ups. Free play and regular races are essentially the same performance-wise. The main differences are score is only tracked in regular races, and it would be easier to collect rings in free play since there's no rival to interfere.

4. Restricting the use of Metal Sonic is to avoid confusion in categories, as he doesn't have his own special move. The other option is to make a rule saying he is treated as the character he is copying, but that would surely confuse at least a few people. As a side note, when Metal Sonic is racing alone in free play, he uses Sonic's special move.

[KnucklesSonic8]

Nicely... re-iterated.
Thanks for that.

So now all there's left to do is get this things up. Good luck with that. <_<

*ks8 speaks with years of experience*
*ks8 bans himself now*
*ks8 stops talking out loud, making himself a target*

Okay, maybe that was a bit... much but srsly, at least you have a better chance of Rivals 2 going up since it's "new" and it's validity isn't disputed. But hey, other games are but you don't see them going up. <_<

[KnucklesSonic8]

Auriman.
Don't give up on getting this up.
Be persisten if you have to but don't let the fact that not many people have it or that noone seems to show interest discourage you. If I haven't after such a long time, you shouldn't either.

Keep badgering "them" (names not mentioned) and you'll succeed... most likely anyway as I can't speak totally from experience. <_<

[Auriman1]

In this case, it doesn't really seem questionable of whether or not it's going up, it's just a matter of waiting for it to go up. With the first semester of schools in most areas nearing a close and the holiday season in full bloom, I won't worry about it for now, as most people are busy and have a good reason for inaction at this time of year.  I just want to make sure all the materials they need are convenient and well-organized to make their work a little easier when they have the time to do it.

Besides, the game only came out almost exactly one month ago. I wouldn't expect the charts to be up that quickly unless the game was the greatest thing ever (or at least more main-stream), especially after the strange two-week delay of its original release.

[KnucklesSonic8]

Good point.

Well I'm glad to hear you're not discouraged because I'm for this going up as much as you are. And I think you're right, I guess it's not a question as to whether or not it's going up.

Still, I'm going to try my best to rent it sometime soon as I really want to try it.

[KnucklesSonic8]

With the near-start of the new year, I thought I'd remind people that we ARE, indeed, waiting for Rivals 2 to go up. Just in case the admin's are "in the mood" to adding it or they feel they can kill two birds with two stones without any hint of laziness.

I'm ranting: main point - add Rivals 2.

[Cutiefox]

My bro has a PSP, he even let's me borrow it sometimes.
I should try getting Rivals 2 maybe. :)

If charts go up, about how many people will be readily available to compete?

[KnucklesSonic8]

Thus far, 3 or 4 of us, not including you.
Noone else has come forward with their thoughts about it (i.e., competition).

[Thorn]

Okay, usually mike's reasoning for when a chart doesn't go up right away is "we're waiting for somebody with some seniority to play the game to declare valid charts". Iono if two years is enough, but competing in 30 different charts gives me a little pull plz?

Here's what I saw for whomever adds the charts:

* The zone names, in order - Blue Coast, Sunset Forest, Neon Palace, Frontier Canyon, Mystic Haunt, Chaotic Inferno. All zones contain three acts and a boss.
* Character divisions seem like overkill if Sonic R doesn't get its own character divisions, as the differences between characters fall mostly to special moves - all stats are the same. In Free Play, Sonic and Metal Sonic are identical as well (although the latter lacks voice acting and is therefore more tolerable).
* The game tracks fastest times and scores on Acts 1 and 3 of each zone. Act 2 is moreorless a mini-game act [insert Shuffle/SSR remark here], and occasionally serves as a "lap race" in which the rivals race a third of Act 1 or 3 repeatedly. Since the mini-games are largely based on whether you get a smart or stupid AI player, I'm a touch skeptical to add Act 2s to the charts right away, although they could always be added in under an Extra division. Bosses can have time tracked with the exception of the last boss, which uses a different sort of timer and would be difficult to track (it disappears at the end of the act without showing a final result).

My decision would be to add a Time and Score chart for each Act 1 and 3 and boss, and a Ring chart for each Act 1 and 3. All modes of play seem legal to me, although Free Play will likely be used for Time in all but rare circumstances like needing to attack a rival to fill the Signature Meter. Considerations for Act 2s would go into an Extra division since they are tracked much differently than the other acts and are more luck-based.


EDIT: Yeah, that strikeout above is due to a realization, hence this edit: I just remembered that lack of items in Free Play might take out the randomness in Ring Attacking due to no Magnet items. Since we've spent ages complaining about ? boxes, I suggest RAing be restricted to Free Play, and Time and Scores legal in any mode.

[KnucklesSonic8]

Thanks for that, Thorn but that shouldn't be a valid reason behind a game not going up.

What if noone of supposed "seniority" ever plays Riders Zero Gravity?
Why stop there? Why not bring Shuffle into the picture, not to mention all the other proposals.

[GerbilSoft]

Ok, once you get this stuff all sorted out, send me a spreadsheet with all the categories, levels, divisions, etc., and I'll take a stab at adding the charts.

OpenDocument format only, please. (*.ODS)

[KnucklesSonic8]

We already HAD it sorted out and Auriman already MADE a spreadsheet. <_<

We always have things sorted out when it comes to stuff like this.

If you're going to try "adding" Rivals 2, there's a bunch of other stuff that should be up but they're not up for one stupid reason or another.

[GerbilSoft]

Ok, I see the spreadsheet, but it's in Microsoft Excel format. Can you resave it as an OpenDocument Spreadsheet?

Also, I said I'd *try* adding it because I've never added charts before, so this would be my first time doing so.

[KnucklesSonic8]

Yeah, no worries. And I know why you said "try" so don't worry.

I really hope you're able to because it beats sitting here, just waiting for things to go up especially when they should've gone up from the very start (not talking about Rivals 2 now) but they're not....

Lemme see if I can save it in the requested format.

edit:
GS, I can't DL it for some reason...

[GerbilSoft]

edit:
GS, I can't DL it for some reason...

What can't you download?

[Thorn]

BAM. See attachment, Gerbil.

EDIT: Quick correction - don't track Chaotic Inferno Boss k.

EDIT 2: Listing competition rules helps, even if they are ridiculously simple. >_>

* All characters may be used.
* Ring stats are to be achieved in Free Play; for all other stats any mode may be used.
* For score divisions, only five physical attacks are permitted in a run.

[GerbilSoft]

Ok, so we're just going to have an "Anyone" division instead of Sonic / Tails / Other?

[Thorn]

^Frankly, the differences per character are even smaller than in Sonic R, so it seems superfluous. Plus, RAing/SAing with Sonic and Other is nearly the same.

[yse]

Since we've spent ages complaining about ? boxes, I suggest RAing be restricted to Free Play, and Time and Scores legal in any mode.

My impression was that complaining about ? boxes should just be considered meaningless whining. Any mode should be allowed for rings.

[Thorn]

The ? gives items this time around and not rings. The idea is that in Story, Cup Circuit, and Single Event, somebody can get a Ring Magnet and absorb rings not only from the route he's/she's on, but also from an opponents' route. Iono if that makes a difference or not - to try to (badly) relate it to a more common game, it'd be like if we allowed Bonus Stages for RAing in S3&K provided that the player leaves with only a Lightning Shield and no additional rings. I personally couldn't care what happens with this, I just don't want more whining.

[GerbilSoft]

Charts added. Go steal Thorn's 0p awards plzkthx. :)

[KnucklesSonic8]

YES! THANK YOU!!
Unfortunately, I don't have the game.. Grreeat. How ideal is that. <_<

Now if only my other stuff would get added as quickly. <_<
Either way, nicely done GS. You're certainly not lazy, I'll give you that.

[Thorn]

^That last line probably sounded much nicer in your head than it seems to be typed out...